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Misconduct/RRS 69 Guidance

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13870
Printed Date: 23 May 22 at 5:28pm
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Topic: Misconduct/RRS 69 Guidance
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Misconduct/RRS 69 Guidance
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 12:40pm
From World Sailing https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingMisconductGuidanceJuly2021-%5B27414%5D.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingMisconductGuidanceJuly2021-%5B27414%5D.pdf




Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 1:04pm
So does this mean no knighthood in future if you swear, jump out of your boat and start beating up photographers then?

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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So does this mean no knighthood in future if you swear, jump out of your boat and start beating up photographers then?

£3m gets you a Lordship ...


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 6:51pm
I like the 'Language that would make an official FEEL they were incompetent or make others think the official was incompetent'.

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Robert


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I like the 'Language that would make an official FEEL they were incompetent or make others think the official was incompetent'.

That's a really tough one as at nearly every event this year I've attended someone has made a complaint about a race management issue. Where does the line get drawn? 

I used the words Ridiculous to an RO this year in regards to starting a race with half the fleet not even at the course yet because launching facilities were to slow to get everyone off the shore in time. Do we just put up with that kind of nonsense because we can't be vocal about it or risk face getting protested under R69?


As paying "customers" are we not allowed to hold them to a decent standard?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I like the 'Language that would make an official FEEL they were incompetent or make others think the official was incompetent'.


I can't find that in the document.

What paragraph please?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 11:34pm
Sorry Brass, not a direct quote, my interpretation, will find original tomorrow and you can Interpret it, see if you agree.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 10 Nov 21 at 11:34pm
I cannot find it either . I do hope 423zero can point it out . 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 7:21am
My interpretation of appendix E and F.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 8:08am
It’s not my interpretation of appendix E and F Disapprove


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 8:19am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by 423zero

I like the 'Language that would make an official FEEL they were incompetent or make others think the official was incompetent'.

That's a really tough one as at nearly every event this year I've attended someone has made a complaint about a race management issue. Where does the line get drawn? 

I used the words Ridiculous to an RO this year in regards to starting a race with half the fleet not even at the course yet because launching facilities were to slow to get everyone off the shore in time. Do we just put up with that kind of nonsense because we can't be vocal about it or risk face getting protested under R69?


As paying "customers" are we not allowed to hold them to a decent standard?

I’ll bite on this.  IMHO if you said the RO’s actions were ridiculous (definition: worthy of contempt or derision) rather than the situation (e.g. “your decision to start that race was ridiculous” vs “that race was ridiculous because the wind was unbelievably shifty”) you have breached 57.1.1[language that might convey incompetence of race official].

Also see section 9, the bar is not gross misconduct, and calling an RO’s actions or decisions is a breach of good manners.

What is Misconduct?
9.1 Misconduct is defined by rule 69.1(a) as being conduct which:
9.1.1 is a breach of good manners, sportsmanship or unethical behaviour; or
9.1.2 conduct that may bring, or has brought, the sport into disrepute.
9.2 There is no requirement for misconduct to be ‘gross misconduct’. This means the level at which conduct becomes misconduct is lower than it was under the rules until 2017,
9.3 This was a deliberate policy decision of World Sailing and intended to ensure a greater range of bad behaviour is addressed by protest committees. In order to ensure that competitors are still treated appropriately and proportionately, greater flexibility has been given to protest committees and other disciplinary bodies.

I have known club members quit the club (and the sport) on the back of rude complaints about their RO efforts.  In a volunteer sport this is clearly absurd.  Even if paid, it is common courtesy to thank officials and provide feedback in a constructive, polite manner.




Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 9:21am
OK, so the guidance doesn't create on offence based on the subjective feelings of a race official. The tests remain objective.

I was brought up that the only things I, as a competitor said to a race officer were "Good Morning", "Thank for a nice day on the water", and "Can I buy you a drink?", to which he was duty bound to reply, "No thank, I've got one coming."

As a sensitive new age race officer, I now seek and welcome feedback from competitors.

What i don't welcome is an earful of abuse.   I think "ridiculous" is just over the line. Whether it would bother me would depend on what else was said.

Generally, if anyone has a "complaint" about race management they should either request redress or write a letter to the sailing committee.



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 10:15am
57 respect for officials was main section I based my opinion on, also similar references in other sections.
57.1.1 Use of language that might convey incompetence or prejudice of race officials


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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 12:55pm
I think one has to be very careful of what one could call the "send three and fourpence" effect. Some of the "variations" in rules one hears quoted in low profile club racing must surely be the result of Fred instructing Bill over the generations, resulting in a misinterpreted version of what was in the rules 100 years ago!


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 1:23pm
The opinion I expressed was purely my own and developed yesterday after reading the Articles, which I still stand by.

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Robert


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Brass

OK, so the guidance doesn't create on offence based on the subjective feelings of a race official. The tests remain objective.

I was brought up that the only things I, as a competitor said to a race officer were "Good Morning", "Thank for a nice day on the water", and "Can I buy you a drink?", to which he was duty bound to reply, "No thank, I've got one coming."

As a sensitive new age race officer, I now seek and welcome feedback from competitors.

What i don't welcome is an earful of abuse.   I think "ridiculous" is just over the line. Whether it would bother me would depend on what else was said.

Generally, if anyone has a "complaint" about race management they should either request redress or write a letter to the sailing committee.



Much might depend on how the RO decides to hear and understand ‘ridiculous’.

In the first half of the definition ‘deserving or inviting derision or mockery’….probably over the line.

If the second half ‘absurd’….maybe not. I would say that in the circumstances described by the OP (if launch start was controlled by the RC and lateness was not the fault of competitors) then not postponing is ‘adsurd’ - ‘wildly unreasonable, illogical or appropriate.’

The problem may be with the ability of the competitor to express themself….certainly it would be harsh for a competitor able to take advantage of the non-arrival of his rivals to be penalised for using language like ‘ridiculous’ on their behalf!

I was very struck by the guidance for jurors and umpires and its suggestion that sometimes they should turn the deaf ear….

I recently received a warning from an umpire where it was the volume I was making my point at (in the conversation that the guidance says should take place!) not for the manner of it…..why was my volume high? Because the umpires positioning of their RIB was rubbish!


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by sargesail

.why was my volume high?


You? High volume? I would never have guessed.

Mate of Maxibuddah by any chance?

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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 9:10pm
Sarge,

First the guidelines don't expressly provide for justification or the defence of truth, but, of course these could be taken into account.

Second "ridiculous" is insulting on any definition.

Third, in reaching conclusions about ridiculous or not, you'd need to know all the circumstances. Maybe th RO had direction from the OA to start on time, maybe competitors were trying to manipulate the start time, maybe th RO got dud all clear from the beachmaster.

I think its pretty simple: don't backchat or be rude to race officials.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Brass

Sarge,


Second "ridiculous" is insulting on any definition.



What, like describing the contents of your last post? FFS get some help.


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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 10:18pm
Grf it seems you don’t have much experience of protests, which is a very big surprise considering what I’ve seen of your sailing in videos LOL


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 7:02am
Originally posted by Brass

Sarge,

First the guidelines don't expressly provide for justification or the defence of truth, but, of course these could be taken into account.

Second "ridiculous" is insulting on any definition.

Third, in reaching conclusions about ridiculous or not, you'd need to know all the circumstances. Maybe th RO had direction from the OA to start on time, maybe competitors were trying to manipulate the start time, maybe th RO got dud all clear from the beachmaster.

I think its pretty simple: don't backchat or be rude to race officials.


Errr there’s quite a lot for umpires etc at 52…..

Right - so I know that ridiculous will trigger you as an official.

Should this situation arrive I will (as Inwould have done) frame starting the race now as unfair and a redressable action of the RC. Hopefully the conversation buys my fellow competitors a bit more time!

I will confine myself to thinking it ridiculous.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 9:51am
Sarge,

As a judge dealing with a rule 69 report I certainly will be inclined to consider "ridiculous" insulting and reflecting ill on the complainant's competence.

As an individual addressed, as I said in my previous post, "I think "ridiculous" is just over the line. Whether it would bother me would depend on what else was said."

As to your last para, I also referred to competitors trying to manipulate the starting time in a previous post,


Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 11:50am
And if the action does cause the race officer to be ridiculed?.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Grf it seems you don’t have much experience of protests, which is a very big surprise considering what I’ve seen of your sailing in videos LOL


Ha, I've been in more protest rooms than you can shake a stick at, never lost one of them.


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Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 12 Nov 21 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Old bloke

And if the action does cause the race officer to be ridiculed?.

I think it’s quite simple. Ridiculing the RO is misconduct. Frame your complaint in a polite, civil, manner and you’ll be fine. Express yourself rudely and you won’t be.


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by Old bloke

And if the action does cause the race officer to be ridiculed?.

I think it’s quite simple. Ridiculing the RO is misconduct. Frame your complaint in a polite, civil, manner and you’ll be fine. Express yourself rudely and you won’t be.

So what happens in the reverse situation? The race officer is rude to a competitor(s)?

I know from multiple sources that this has happened at a championships in the last couple of years but I'm effectively only party to one side of the story and will not risk identifying the event.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

So what happens in the reverse situation? The race officer is rude to a competitor(s)?
I know from multiple sources that this has happened at a championships in the last couple of years but I'm effectively only party to one side of the story and will not risk identifying the event.


If you think a race official has engaged in misconduct or contravened the Race Officials Code of Conduct, you can write a complaint to the host club or the RYA.

That will be dealt with administratively. It is not subject to the RRS.


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 8:38am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Paramedic

So what happens in the reverse situation? The race officer is rude to a competitor(s)?
I know from multiple sources that this has happened at a championships in the last couple of years but I'm effectively only party to one side of the story and will not risk identifying the event.


If you think a race official has engaged in misconduct or contravened the Race Officials Code of Conduct, you can write a complaint to the host club or the RYA.

That will be dealt with administratively. It is not subject to the RRS.

Is that good enough though?

I could be censured under rule 69 for saying to a race officer "come on, this is ridiculous" after the 8th general recall where we cant cross the line on starboard and no sign of moving the pin back a few lengths, but the race officer can say/do what they like with no effective recourse available.

I fully get and I am onboard with the volunteers speech, I have race officered open meetings myself. When I pay to enter the event I expect good service. There are - unfortunately- still ROs out there who think that we turn up so that they can run an event, and they are exactly the sort who play the cards suggested. They are in the minority but out there.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 5:02am
Is that good enough though? I could be censured under rule 69 for saying to a race officer "come on, this is ridiculous" after the 8th general recall where we cant cross the line on starboard and no sign of moving the pin back a few lengths, but the race officer can say/do what they like with no effective recourse available.


There is no power to 'censure' a competitor under rule 69.   A competitor can either be given a warning or a penalty applicable to her places in races or further participation in an event.

You seem to misundersatnd the effect of a complaint of official misconoduct. The outcome of such a complaint for a race official can include censure or reprimand, and suspension or disqualification from officiating.

Misconduct may not be the same as incompetence, but at least at World Sailing level, a complaint of incompetence is investigated an treated similarly to misconduct and can have similarly serious consequences.

When I pay to enter the event I expect good service.


Be careful what you wish for.

If you choose to treat a sailing event as a consumer service purchase transaction, instead of as as collaborative endeavour of a voluntary association to engage in a pleasurable activity, it won't come cheap. Qualified race officials put a lot of time an effort into gaining qualifications and experience to run racing. Has you club got a lazy 70k lying around to employ a full time professional?

There are - unfortunately- still ROs out there who think that we turn up so that they can run an event, and they are exactly the sort who play the cards suggested. They are in the minority but out there.


And preventing that from happening next time is exactly what a written complaint to the organiser will contribute to.

How much do you think an earful of abuse to that sort of person will acccomplish?


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 7:50am
Brass . Spot on 


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 8:03am
Hmmmm. I take your point about professional Brass…..and I recognise the potential for the type of complaint you mention.

But the problem here is that Race Officers are generally volunteers within clubs. The complaint therefore tends to echo….especially given the way that ruse officials of the sort Paramedic mentions are also the kind that are deeply meshed into Club committees.

Nothing more amusing though than a team if mark layers giving an RO who is getting it wrong a stiff ignoring do that competitors get a good race. I’ve seen that a few times when they have been faced with that sort of combination of incompetence and behaviour.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 8:12am
So back to ridiculous….to explore a couple of things….

My though experiment was a situation where half the fleet hadn’t made the start time through no fault of their own.

Is there a difference between:

Pre-warning - ‘it would be ridiculous to start this now because….’

Post-warning - ‘This is ridiculous because…..’

At any tiime - ‘You are ridiculous because….’

It seems to me that the latter is an ad hominem attack and probably always misconduct.

Pre-warning is not dissent because no decision has been made to dissent against.

Post warning it qualifies as dissent…..


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 9:10am
I think the word 'ridiculous' is inherently aggressive and creates a problem no matter when its used.

"Please may we delay the start so that everyone can get here" is a much more civilised alternative.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 11:43am

Originally posted by sargesail

But the problem here is that Race Officers are generally volunteers within clubs. The complaint therefore tends to echo….especially given the way that ruse officials of the sort Paramedic mentions are also the kind that are deeply meshed into Club committees..

So we're talking about both incompetent and rude.
As I sort of said before, there is a typical personality here, and it's not going to pay attention to any advice offered, so better save your breath.
Let's, optimistically, assume that we're not dealing with a completely arrogant, lazy dope, but rather someone who is trying to do a proper job, but not doing it very well.
What's the effect of some shouted comment from a competitor as they sail past?

Let's talk about an umpire first.
Suppose they have made a bad call.
What they <i style="font-weight: bold;">can't do is cancel a penalty signal, or even worse, give a 'square-up' penalty.
So what does a yelling at on the water achieve?  precisely nothing except to distract them from getting the next incident right.
OK, now lets talk about Race Officers.
Say we're in the five minutes before the Warning Signal.
What's the RO supposed to be doing:
  • monitoring wind strength and direction,
  • testing and calculating allowance for current
  • verifying/adjusting windward mark position
  • course selection
  • verifying/adjusting pin position
  • check assignment and performance of race management team tasks:   boat count, flags, timing process,
  • observing arrival of boats in the starting area,
  • observing shipping or boats in the course area.
  • implementing directions given by the organizing authority.
In other words, the RO has quite a bit of stuff he or she is supposed to be concentrating on.
And some dude sails past offering some 'helpful' advice.
For every not-very-competent race officer, there would be about 50 competitors who aren't very competent at conducting races either, and, btw, probably at least one or two competitors who are rude and arrogant as well.
So, in a fairly stressful period, just how much value, at best, should the RO place on some shouted comment?  Answer, probably not all that much, if it's going to distract them from the tasks they know they have to do.
Shouted 'discussions' between boats about rules and race management are rarely effective.
If you really do think you can offer something helpful to the RO, by all means have a go, but have a thought about timing, and effective spoken communication and rapport.
All right, now for the club political dimension.
If a club has a mad bad RO on the books, and they're dug into the organisation, the problem is with the organisation, not the individual, so yelling at the individual is completely counterproductive.
The problem is that the club lacks commitment to good race management.
If it's your club, then you probably have to enter into the politics of the club.
If it's an 'away' club, then the letter of complaint is the starting point.  If the individual is a RYA accredited race official, a formal incompetence complaint to the RYA may be useful.  If all else fails vote with your feet and don't come back next year, but if you do that, for goodnesss sake write to them and tell them why.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 11:58am
Originally posted by sargesail

So back to ridiculous….to explore a couple of things….

My though experiment was a situation where half the fleet hadn’t made the start time through no fault of their own.

Is there a difference between:

Pre-warning - ‘it would be ridiculous to start this now because….’

Post-warning - ‘This is ridiculous because…..’

At any tiime - ‘You are ridiculous because….’

It seems to me that the latter is an ad hominem attack and probably always misconduct.

Pre-warning is not dissent because no decision has been made to dissent against.

Post warning it qualifies as dissent…..


I'm not happy harping on 'ridiculous'.

As I've previously posted, it's at the lower end of the scale, and any problem would depend very much on all sorts of contextual factors.

Nevertheless, if some thin-skinned race official complains and a report goes to a protest committee, it's very likely to be misconduct. If I was around, it probably wouldn't go above a warning, but again it would depend on context.

I wouldn't be trying any smart arguments based on Appendix E about whether there was dissent or not.

I don't think the Guidance paper does a very good job with dissent, compared with say Cricket, but it matters less in sailing, because dissent doesn't affect the play of the game. If a competitor dissents from an umpire decision, then they just get further penalised: it doesn't affect the flow of the game.

In fact the guidance paper doesn't tell you what to do about dissent, except not to over-react to it. Anything that is dissent in accordance with para 49, is just an incident which can be fitted into all the other types of incident described.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

So back to ridiculous….to explore a couple of things….

My though experiment was a situation where half the fleet hadn’t made the start time through no fault of their own.

Is there a difference between:

Pre-warning - ‘it would be ridiculous to start this now because….’

Post-warning - ‘This is ridiculous because…..’

At any tiime - ‘You are ridiculous because….’

It seems to me that the latter is an ad hominem attack and probably always misconduct.

Pre-warning is not dissent because no decision has been made to dissent against.

Post warning it qualifies as dissent…..


I'm not happy harping on 'ridiculous'.

As I've previously posted, it's at the lower end of the scale, and any problem would depend very much on all sorts of contextual factors.

Nevertheless, if some thin-skinned race official complains and a report goes to a protest committee, it's very likely to be misconduct. If I was around, it probably wouldn't go above a warning, but again it would depend on context.

I wouldn't be trying any smart arguments based on Appendix E about whether there was dissent or not.

I don't think the Guidance paper does a very good job with dissent, compared with say Cricket, but it matters less in sailing, because dissent doesn't affect the play of the game. If a competitor dissents from an umpire decision, then they just get further penalised: it doesn't affect the flow of the game.

In fact the guidance paper doesn't tell you what to do about dissent, except not to over-react to it. Anything that is dissent in accordance with para 49, is just an incident which can be fitted into all the other types of incident described.


So I wanted to come back to it precisely because I didn’t feel that this thread had adequately taken account of ‘not over-react’. Entirely accept your point that an official who wanted to react to ‘ridiculous’ could do so and that it would be reasonable to expect a PC to find misconduct based on the report.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by Brass


Originally posted by sargesail

But the problem here is that Race Officers are generally volunteers within clubs. The complaint therefore tends to echo….especially given the way that ruse officials of the sort Paramedic mentions are also the kind that are deeply meshed into Club committees..

So we're talking about both incompetent and rude.
As I sort of said before, there is a typical personality here, and it's not going to pay attention to any advice offered, so better save your breath.
Let's, optimistically, assume that we're not dealing with a completely arrogant, lazy dope, but rather someone who is trying to do a proper job, but not doing it very well.
What's the effect of some shouted comment from a competitor as they sail past?

Let's talk about an umpire first.
Suppose they have made a bad call.
What they <i style="font-weight: bold;">can't do is cancel a penalty signal, or even worse, give a 'square-up' penalty.
So what does a yelling at on the water achieve?  precisely nothing except to distract them from getting the next incident right.
OK, now lets talk about Race Officers.
Say we're in the five minutes before the Warning Signal.
What's the RO supposed to be doing:
  • monitoring wind strength and direction,
  • testing and calculating allowance for current
  • verifying/adjusting windward mark position
  • course selection
  • verifying/adjusting pin position
  • check assignment and performance of race management team tasks:   boat count, flags, timing process,
  • observing arrival of boats in the starting area,
  • observing shipping or boats in the course area.
  • implementing directions given by the organizing authority.
In other words, the RO has quite a bit of stuff he or she is supposed to be concentrating on.
And some dude sails past offering some 'helpful' advice.
For every not-very-competent race officer, there would be about 50 competitors who aren't very competent at conducting races either, and, btw, probably at least one or two competitors who are rude and arrogant as well.
So, in a fairly stressful period, just how much value, at best, should the RO place on some shouted comment?  Answer, probably not all that much, if it's going to distract them from the tasks they know they have to do.
Shouted 'discussions' between boats about rules and race management are rarely effective.
If you really do think you can offer something helpful to the RO, by all means have a go, but have a thought about timing, and effective spoken communication and rapport.
All right, now for the club political dimension.
If a club has a mad bad RO on the books, and they're dug into the organisation, the problem is with the organisation, not the individual, so yelling at the individual is completely counterproductive.
The problem is that the club lacks commitment to good race management.
If it's your club, then you probably have to enter into the politics of the club.
If it's an 'away' club, then the letter of complaint is the starting point.  If the individual is a RYA accredited race official, a formal incompetence complaint to the RYA may be useful.  If all else fails vote with your feet and don't come back next year, but if you do that, for goodnesss sake write to them and tell them why.


And a good race officer asks competitors how it was for them….


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think the word 'ridiculous' is inherently aggressive and creates a problem no matter when its used.

"Please may we delay the start so that everyone can get here" is a much more civilised alternative.

Spot on, as so often on here and the other place your are the voice of reason Smile


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 Nov 21 at 8:47am
Originally posted by Brass

Is that good enough though? I could be censured under rule 69 for saying to a race officer "come on, this is ridiculous" after the 8th general recall where we cant cross the line on starboard and no sign of moving the pin back a few lengths, but the race officer can say/do what they like with no effective recourse available.


There is no power to 'censure' a competitor under rule 69.   A competitor can either be given a warning or a penalty applicable to her places in races or further participation in an event.

You seem to misundersatnd the effect of a complaint of official misconoduct. The outcome of such a complaint for a race official can include censure or reprimand, and suspension or disqualification from officiating.

Misconduct may not be the same as incompetence, but at least at World Sailing level, a complaint of incompetence is investigated an treated similarly to misconduct and can have similarly serious consequences.

When I pay to enter the event I expect good service.


Be careful what you wish for.

If you choose to treat a sailing event as a consumer service purchase transaction, instead of as as collaborative endeavour of a voluntary association to engage in a pleasurable activity, it won't come cheap. Qualified race officials put a lot of time an effort into gaining qualifications and experience to run racing. Has you club got a lazy 70k lying around to employ a full time professional?

There are - unfortunately- still ROs out there who think that we turn up so that they can run an event, and they are exactly the sort who play the cards suggested. They are in the minority but out there.


And preventing that from happening next time is exactly what a written complaint to the organiser will contribute to.

How much do you think an earful of abuse to that sort of person will acccomplish?

That's a fantastic bit of selective quoting, making it look as if i'm saying almost the opposite of what I actually was. 

Ridiculous........



Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 27 Nov 21 at 8:48am
Originally posted by sargesail

And a good race officer asks competitors how it was for them….


I asked that today and the answer was, Cold, Wet, and I spewed so much I set off my Personal MOB AIS Alarm.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 27 Nov 21 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

And a good race officer asks competitors how it was for them….


I asked that today and the answer was, Cold, Wet, and I spewed so much I set off my Personal MOB AIS Alarm.
One thing I have learned in life is that if you ask for feedback/advice you have to make it very clear that you reserve the right to note it and not use it, otherwise some get upset when their advice isn’t heeded. 


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 29 Nov 21 at 12:16am
Originally posted by Paramedic


That's a fantastic bit of selective quoting, making it look as if i'm saying almost the opposite of what I actually was. 
Ridiculous.......


I quoted each of your paragraphs accurately and in full, except for the following

I fully get and I am onboard with the volunteers speech, I have race officered open meetings myself.


If there are some issues you don't think I've engaged with fairly, I think you need to spell them out a bit more clearly.



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