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Clean wind or favoured tack?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13861
Printed Date: 12 Aug 22 at 9:24am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Clean wind or favoured tack?
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: Clean wind or favoured tack?
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 11:38pm
So I'm halfway up a fluky beat and in dirty air but on the lifting tack, should I suck up the bad air to stay on the good shift or tack for clean wind?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 6:09am
How long is the leg? Short leg stick with it, if your boat is substantially faster, try for the overtake.

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Robert


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 7:44am
I agree to try pass, definitely if the wind is shifting a lot. Tacking off could take you exactly wrong place for the next shift coming through. You could end up sailing on two headers.
To pass your options are to either go into high mode ( if you have one). This will clear your air with a bit of hard work. Or you could go into low mode. The advantage of this is it will take you over to where the next shift is coming from. With luck then you will be able to tack and clear the boat ahead


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 9:34am
Why the dirty air? is it that you're mid fleet or just trees, are there more trees ahead?

Is the tack you're on taking you closest to the mark (regardless wether it's lifting or not if you're sailing away from the next mark your onto a loser.)

If you'r in the fleet and its the best tack then you really have to suck it up and hope some of them tack off or try to use the moment (lifting gust to power low to get your nose ahead of the nearest cover then attempt to harden a lee bow on him/her)

Difficult question too many variables, need to qualify eactly what's going on.

Lived my career by one fundamental, always the tack taking you closest the mark, sail for the buoy ignore everyone.

(Unless of course there are trees and you have to stay in the wind just to move)

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 10:26am
Thanks, I will try that next time. I usually prioritise clean wind but on a flukey inland course with short legs that wasn't working.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 05 May 22 at 10:36pm
I'd go clean air as it's supposed to be worth 20degrees! Need a big big shift to make it worth staying in the other boats slip stream.

Or, my javelin is so fast on a close reach that I can foot off from close hauled, get planing, under take the boat in front then tack across them back into clean air. Doesn't work against other Javelins (ospreys 5o5s etc) of course, but it's a nicectricknin a handicap race.

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Javelin 558
Contender 2574


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 May 22 at 8:04pm
Tack out, find a lane asap, tack back.

But it really depends on the situation. Different decisions for different situations.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 8:38am
 Tack, tack back - parallel lane to the original, enough gap to break dirty air, and the kinetic benefits of 2 roll tacks 


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 8:50am
Originally posted by sawman

 Tack, tack back - parallel lane to the original, enough gap to break dirty air, and the kinetic benefits of 2 roll tacks 
I refer the honourable gent to rule 42.



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 8:59am
Bit of ooching to follow

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 9:16am
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by sawman

 Tack, tack back - parallel lane to the original, enough gap to break dirty air, and the kinetic benefits of 2 roll tacks 
I refer the honourable gent to rule 42.


Oh come on lol. If you cannot come out of the tack faster than you went in , there is no point doing it LOLWink


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D-zero
Ex Laser x2
Ex British Moth x4
Ex Lightning 368
Ex Supernova


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 9:29am
Couple of good pumps too

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Robert


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by sawman

 Tack, tack back - parallel lane to the original, enough gap to break dirty air, and the kinetic benefits of 2 roll tacks 
I refer the honourable gent to rule 42.


Oh come on lol. If you cannot come out of the tack faster than you went in , there is no point doing it LOLWink

theres always someone who is rubbish at roll tacking blathering on about rule 42Wink

in this situation, it would be reasonable to return to the speed you had before getting stuck in dirty air - so not gaining speed, more returning to previous speed.


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Couple of good pumps too

if you have got it, flaunt it....


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by sawman

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by sawman

 Tack, tack back - parallel lane to the original, enough gap to break dirty air, and the kinetic benefits of 2 roll tacks 
I refer the honourable gent to rule 42.


Oh come on lol. If you cannot come out of the tack faster than you went in , there is no point doing it LOLWink

theres always someone who is rubbish at roll tacking blathering on about rule 42Wink

in this situation, it would be reasonable to return to the speed you had before getting stuck in dirty air - so not gaining speed, more returning to previous speed.
 No, it’s reasonable that  “just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe.”.  You can’t use the tack to get to accelerate you, so there are no “kinetic benefits” to be had, at best there is still some loss as there will be speed (and distance)  reduction in the turn that can’t be compensated for.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by A2Z


Originally posted by sawman


Originally posted by Grumpycat


Originally posted by A2Z


Originally posted by sawman

 Tack, tack back - parallel lane to the original, enough gap to break dirty air, and the kinetic benefits of 2 roll tacks 
I refer the honourable gent to rule 42.

Oh come on lol. If you cannot come out of the tack faster than you went in , there is no point doing it LOLWink

theres always someone who is rubbish at roll tacking blathering on about rule 42Wink
in this situation, it would be reasonable to return to the speed you had before getting stuck in dirty air - so not gaining speed, more returning to previous speed.

 No, it’s reasonable that  “just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe.”.  You can’t use the tack to get to accelerate you, so there are no “kinetic benefits” to be had, at best there is still some loss as there will be speed (and distance)  reduction in the turn that can’t be compensated for.


So right and yet so wrong! The legal gain in a roll tack is in improved VMG during the tack. Ie when pointing upwind. If the return (and no more) to entry speed is efficient then a big gain is available. So kinetic gains mischaracterises the mechanism of gain, but the mechanism dos rely on good kinetics.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by sawman

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by sawman

 Tack, tack back - parallel lane to the original, enough gap to break dirty air, and the kinetic benefits of 2 roll tacks 
I refer the honourable gent to rule 42.


Oh come on lol. If you cannot come out of the tack faster than you went in , there is no point doing it LOLWink

theres always someone who is rubbish at roll tacking blathering on about rule 42Wink

in this situation, it would be reasonable to return to the speed you had before getting stuck in dirty air - so not gaining speed, more returning to previous speed.
 No, it’s reasonable that  “just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe.”.  You can’t use the tack to get to accelerate you, so there are no “kinetic benefits” to be had, at best there is still some loss as there will be speed (and distance)  reduction in the turn that can’t be compensated for.

It might ‘ reasonable’ . But every dinghy sailor from reasonable club sailor to world champions does come out of the tack quicker .Smile


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D-zero
Ex Laser x2
Ex British Moth x4
Ex Lightning 368
Ex Supernova


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 5:21pm
I fairly race through the tack, I am very athletic, this throwing the boat through the manoeuvre must generate drive, but it isn't looked for, just a natural consequence.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 07 May 22 at 8:46pm
This is very true, which is why this rule is very silly. 

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D-zero
Ex Laser x2
Ex British Moth x4
Ex Lightning 368
Ex Supernova


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 08 May 22 at 6:49am
It isn't really though is it because if they did do away with it i'm pretty sure on some days I could roll tack my solo up the beat head to wind. Its only in conditions where we really shouldn't be racing that this crops up I suppose and if we decide to sail we - mostly - all know where the line is.

I don't think there is much wrong with any of the propulsion rules. Windsurfing removed them and within 3 years a thriving racing scene at my club had died completely.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 08 May 22 at 7:58am
Originally posted by Paramedic

It isn't really though is it because if they did do away with it i'm pretty sure on some days I could roll tack my solo up the beat head to wind. Its only in conditions where we really shouldn't be racing that this crops up I suppose and if we decide to sail we - mostly - all know where the line is.
I don't think there is much wrong with any of the propulsion rules. Windsurfing removed them and within 3 years a thriving racing scene at my club had died completely.


Yes you could - based on empirical evidence from racing solo sailors!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 22 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

This is very true, which is why this rule is very silly. 

But no rule is much worse. I love gentle subtle kinetics, the use of subtle body movement coupled with sail and rudder to make best use of changing conditions, and if I'm sailing recreationally I do it all the time.

But legalise it, and is this what we see? It is not. What we see is the 470s [redacted] on the trapeze, the constant sail flapping/air rowing of the boards, Star crews constantly rocking the boat, and even when its technically illegal there have been times when certain fleets have got in the habit of rocking rolling and pumping round the track.

The cure tastes pretty nasty, but it sure as hell is a load better than the disease. I'm sure the sailing authorities would be delighted if someone could frame better propulsion rules that weren't desperately subjective, but I know I'm not smart enough to manage it.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 22 at 11:17am
Yes, leave it alone, racing rules are top heavy enough, experienced sailors and officials know when someone is taking the mickey.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 May 22 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Paramedic

It isn't really though is it because if they did do away with it i'm pretty sure on some days I could roll tack my solo up the beat head to wind. Its only in conditions where we really shouldn't be racing that this crops up I suppose and if we decide to sail we - mostly - all know where the line is.

I don't think there is much wrong with any of the propulsion rules. Windsurfing removed them and within 3 years a thriving racing scene at my club had died completely.

At my club it wasn't pumping that killed long board racing (or on the UK circuit) but what did is another discussion. I was very against pumping in Div 1 but got to be reasonably good at it out of necessity. And on boards at least it was pretty much impossible to police.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 30 May 22 at 9:37am
We police upwind pumping in the Windsurfer LT class with no problem, although there is a "pump all you want" period for 30 seconds after the start. Policing when the air is as dirty as it is when coming off the is extremely difficult, as is downwind pumping so we allow that first burst of pumping upwind and all pumping downwind. It's a pretty good compromise and the conformity with the rules is excellent.

In general I must agree with Jim C 100%. If we didn't have rules against kinetics many people would spend much of each race pumping or rolling as hard as they could. In many classes you would just stand on the foredeck and rock the boat from side to side as hard as you physically could. It would take away a vast amount of the skill, cause enormous gaps to the older and newer sailors, and look absolutely stupid.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 30 May 22 at 1:53pm
I never said the there shouldn’t be rules . In general I am for the current rules , I don’t want to see a pump and rock fest .Only that the bit about coming out of the roll tack faster than you went in is silly as it’s not enforceable and every half decent ILCA/ Laser/Solo etc  sailor is doing exactly that up and down the country on a light wind day .

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D-zero
Ex Laser x2
Ex British Moth x4
Ex Lightning 368
Ex Supernova


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 May 22 at 5:37pm
It's never going to be a problem in the Blaze, the racks prevent more than a very modest roll and the lack of rocker means they are slow to tack anyway Unhappy

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



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