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Definition of Planing

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13274
Printed Date: 18 Sep 19 at 11:01pm
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Topic: Definition of Planing
Posted By: Peaky
Subject: Definition of Planing
Date Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 7:33pm
Rule 42.3c states Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the front of a wave) or planing is possible, the boat’s crew may pull in any sail in order to initiate surfing or planing, but each sail may be pulled in only once for each wave or gust of wind.

“Surfing” is defined in the rule, but “planing” is not, nor is it defined in the definitions section of the rules. For that matter neither is “gust”.

I read the interpretations of Rule 42 on the WS website, but can’t see anything that defines planing (or gust), and I don’t believe either is as straightforward to define as may first appear.

The WS interpretations do say that planing need not be successfully achieved, but it does have to be possible (and if you fail to get planing after more than two attempts are likely to have broken the rules).




Replies:
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 8:46pm
Planing is when a substantial part of displacement is supported by dynamic lift rather than bouyancy. Fn = 1 i.e. 12kts for a 14ft dinghy is where true planing can start. But for a canoe or catamaran which won't create lift it won't be planing.
12kts is pretty fast for most 14ft dinghies.
I guess surfing is the more likely excuse for some kinetics, which is defined as presumably acceleration on a wave? How big is a wave etc etc.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 8:49pm
So cat sailors can't pump to get planing LOL

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Planing is when a substantial part of displacement is supported by dynamic lift rather than bouyancy. Fn = 1 i.e. 12kts for a 14ft dinghy is where true planing can start. But for a canoe or catamaran which won't create lift it won't be planing.
12kts is pretty fast for most 14ft dinghies.
I guess surfing is the more likely excuse for some kinetics, which is defined as presumably acceleration on a wave? How big is a wave etc etc.

Yes, but “substantial” isn’t very precise and linking it to Fn is not a definition, more a rule of thumb or convenience. Loads of Laser and RS200sailors would claim to be planing at much lower speeds than that.
And yes, what constitutes a wave...


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 9:45pm
Surely the idea here is that the boat can break displacement wave forms and go faster than waterline length would normally allow? Hull shapes, weight and rig design will all affect a boat's ability to successfully go faster than displacement speed. Long thin hills don't create the same wave forms, so yes, I'd say that cats shouldn't be allowed to pump. Bet they do anyway.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 02 Mar 19 at 7:52am
So planing is sailing at any speed greater than “allowed” by waterline length, unless it’s long and thin? Pretty vague still, for the basis of enforcing a rule. Presumably the allowed speed would be Fn = 0.4 (where wavelength equals hull length), but that isn’t a hard barrier to speed in displacement mode, many dinghies can go faster than this upwind.

And anyway, why should you only be allowed to sheet in once per gust if it gets you planing (however defined)? Seems discriminatory against boats that would still accelerate without planing.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Mar 19 at 9:06pm
Why should it be allowed at all, do you mean? Sounds like adding a paddle stroke to me.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 02 Mar 19 at 9:56pm
Why shouldn’t everyone be allowed to sheet once per gust, regardless of whether you get planing? Seems sensible if no definition if planing exists, and why should only some boats be allowed to (try to) benefit?


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 02 Mar 19 at 10:14pm
If sailing properly, one should be adjusting sheets to every change in wind strength and direction / steering input / waver pertubation. When does an adjustment become a "pump" or some other kinetic grey area.
I like kinetics its bloody skillful, and think that those like Paul Henderson who would seek to regulate it out entirely would remove a major part of the art.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 7:41am
Sheet adjustments and body movements are designed to make the most of conditions as they change, and as you say, they are (or will be if you concentrate) constant. Pumping is creating power by human means.

Much wiser minds than mine have failed to spot the difference. It can be impossible to tell even when sailing oneself whether a particular movement was making the most of conditions or creating them.

Sometimes it is bleeding obvious, though! But I don't really think we should stop promoting increasing speed as wave conditions allow by not allowing limited body or mainsheet movement. Sailing is supposed to be fun, after all.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 8:19am
So, back to the OP, if you see someone do a single pump how can you tell that is both a. in response to a gust and b. In an effort to get planing? Both conditions are necessary to be a legal move, but I don’t see how a jury could find you in breach if neither gust nor planing are defined.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 8:38am
There's plenty of help about. Here's a starter for 10...

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/42Interpretationsforbooklet-%5b15296%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/42Interpretationsforbooklet-15296.pdf

(Link fixed after struggling with daft URLs with square brackets. Web search for RRS 42 examples for lots more...)


uploads/249/1_Rule_421.pdf" rel="nofollow - 1_Rule_421.pdf


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 8:42am
Thanks, but neither link works. I did read the interpretations but I still don’t see a definition of planing, or gust, so who is to say that my action didn’t initiate planing if we can’t agree what it is (or whether I was in a gust).


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 9:03am
Basically it’s massively subjective and judges just make their own opinions about it, often elderly judges who have never sailed dinghies in the modern age sitting in boats hundreds of yards away, adding an element of inconsistency! You could never get clarification or claim redress against poor decisions of which there were many ie say “that pump was on a wave / gust” or “that roll was to enable / facilitate steering of 3.2 degrees” etc. Just about the only unambiguous policeable one was for sculling on start lines, which is a nonsense as nobody is looking to propel themselves, just change heading at zero forward speed pre start.
It’s very rare to see of hear sailors protesting each other at club to international level on r42.

“He rocked / pumped repeatedly etc at that time..” “No I didn’t” or “there was a wave/ gust” or “I steered” then you are back to how big is a wave, how can you measure it etc.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 9:22am
Subjective and without redress? Yikes!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Daniel Holman


It’s very rare to see of hear sailors protesting each other at club to international level on r42.

But very common to hear sailors complaining about other sailors breaking propulsion rules.
The only time I can recall being on the wrong end of a protest was club sailing back in the 70s. It got very acrimonious. We won, but the PC effectively told us we were lucky to get away with it.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Peaky

Subjective and without redress? Yikes!


Yep if you didn’t do turns immediately you get dnd or something like that, possibly disciplinary hearing too.
Happy days!


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 9:55am
How is that allowed? An ambiguous rule, subjectively applied and penalised without a hearing. What could possibly go wrong?


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 9:56am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Daniel Holman


It’s very rare to see of hear sailors protesting each other at club to international level on r42.

But very common to hear sailors complaining about other sailors breaking propulsion rules.
The only time I can recall being on the wrong end of a protest was club sailing back in the 70s. It got very acrimonious. We won, but the PC effectively told us we were lucky to get away with it.


True - think that especially light air rolling you get some club sailors going over the top, as there aren’t judges.
As a self policing sport, it’s hard to make protests on this sort of stuff without it feeling personal and acrimonious to at least one party.
Probs best dealt with diplomatically with a chat in first instances.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Peaky

How is that allowed? An ambiguous rule, subjectively applied and penalised without a hearing. What could possibly go wrong?


Ach it all generally finds an equilibrium.
Tbh most of the laser sailing I did, which outside windsurfing and Finn with free pumping, is one of the most kinetic classes, the best guys did as much kinetics as they wanted / could and it wouldn’t draw too much heat as it was in the lighter part of the grey area.
Apart from sculling to change heading whilst stationary, Judges in boats 100yds away don’t like seeing leeches flicking or arms moving fast. (Where does continuous sheeting start and “pumping” stop?) but to be honest no top laser sailors ever do what the rule describes pumping as.
Much quicker / more transient / done through body weight.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 10:08am
I would like subtle gentle skilled kinetics to be legal, but the trouble is they aren't as effective as unsubtle brute force flapping the boat round the course, and that would destroy sailing as an all ages sport. Trying to draw a distinction between subtle and unsubtle kinetics would be even more fraught with difficulty than the current situation, so I'm reluctantly of the opinion that what we have at the moment is the least worst option anyone has managed to come up with.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 10:13am
Originally posted by JimC

I would like subtle gentle skilled kinetics to be legal, but the trouble is they aren't as effective as unsubtle brute force flapping the boat round the course, and that would destroy sailing as an all ages sport. Trying to draw a distinction between subtle and unsubtle kinetics would be even more fraught with difficulty than the current situation, so I'm reluctantly of the opinion that what we have at the moment is the least worst option anyone has managed to come up with.


I would say that unless you are in a Finn with 1:1 sheet And jc strap, free pumping, or windsurfing, then in other dinghy classes, brutal and unsubtle kinetics are slower.
What I was trying to say is that if free kinetics allowed in say laser, I don’t think you’d see say Robert scheidt sailing any differently.
Also, racing hiking dinghies in breeze even completely unkinetic is brutal anyway, thus on open sea champs courses a young mans game.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 10:21am
Doesn't seem to be the opinion of everyone who flaps their way back to the jetty after light airs finishes at my club Dan [grin]


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 10:25am
Originally posted by JimC

Doesn't seem to be the opinion of everyone who flaps their way back to the jetty after light airs finishes at my club Dan [grin]

Yep fair dos sub 5 or 6kts (ie not raceable in most champs si) is the exception!


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 11:05am
Half the sailing I do is sub six knots, and gentle rocking is really, really fast. "My boat is unstable when I'm sat right forwards" seems to be the excuse. Pretty sure it still isn't allowed.

Mind, I used to push the rules with the best of them in certain classes, if that was the norm. The Lightning tends towards rules being obayed quite tightly as a social norm, and that has made me realise how lax some other classes are. Did a Laser open last year. Was like a different sport.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 11:44am
The difference is though that rocking is not permitted under any circumstance I.e. the potential to get planing or surfing does not excuse it. Pumping is allowed once per gust (if it could get you planing), so if you are more skilful at detecting very small wind increases you can potentially pump more than me (or more than the judge allows) if you argue you are falling off the plane frequently.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 11:46am
But you can use heel ie rock if it is to facilitate steering right?
“I turned 1.3 degrees, your honour!”


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 11:58am
Technically I’m not sure that is an excuse. Rocking: repeated rolling of the boat, induced by:
(1) body movement,
(2) repeated adjustment of the sails or centreboard, or
(3) steering;

So if the boat rolls repeatedly (more than once??) that could construed as rocking even if the (claimed) intent was to alter course.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 12:00pm
Repeated alteration of course to hunt “waves” and “gusts”


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 12:01pm
What is “repeated” etc etc.
You can encounter a lot of “waves” or “gusts” on a leg!


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Mar 19 at 4:40pm
In the fleets that I sail there are a handful of known Rock n’Rollers. I often don’t bother to turn up if there is little wind and they are sailing ... it is not a lot of fun racing with them.  If it is windy I am less fussed.

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Mar 19 at 2:27pm
Funny how nothings changed down the years, my view, being the person most responsible for forcing the pace re pumping and windsurfing which I don't regret, but accept the negative effect it had according to some at club level, I would however countenance that it should be resisted. In my dinghy world which is two fold, down the lake it gets policed, well I get policed by the Miracle mums to the point as soon as I stand up they start shouting, but I accept that and as long as there is policing and everyone gets policed then it's good not to have it, but that can only come from the fleet and be made to stick.
Now the sea is a different matter, it can be very long and boring hiking legs and the waves do make a big difference if handled correctly, even just easing the sheets on and off as they pass or as the boat rolls with them and it is a skill, not that energetic either. Ben Ainslie-ing it down the reach is perhaps a different matter and tbh I didn't rate his technique and timing, applied as it was, just rowing none stop, which I don't think should be permitted, genuine pumping at the right moment in tune with the kinetic action of the wave is a very hard earned skill and varies quite dramatically to different rocker lengths in it's positive and negative effects, I can thrash away all I want in some wave length and types and go backwards whereas others I can pick up yards ten at a time.
But, who's to judge? It can only be the other fleet members and if they're happy to put up with the sport becoming more of an atheletic than a cranial past time then they risk losing members to classes that view the opposite. From the moment I first took a sail in hand, I couldn't help myself but use it to urge the craft to greater speed, but that wasn't a fixed rig and I think the more fixed the rig the more illegal it should be to pump it, so unstayed wobbly mono rigs should be OK, but stayed rig classes should perhaps be more restrictive in kinetics, if you were looking for a simple solution which of course there isn't one.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Mar 19 at 5:05pm
I originally disagreed with unlimited pumping on windsurfers but eventually got quite good at it. I agree with restricting it in dinghies though. The present rules seem to be about right as long as the sailors police themselves (which they do at my 'serious' racing club).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 10 Mar 19 at 4:38pm
Just going back to the OP.
Not all terms used within the RRS are defined.
Within the Introductory preamble to the rules is the paragraph 'terminology' where there is a glossary of terms. Below this it states 'other words and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use'.
I guess what you are challenging is whether 'planing' is ordinarily understood?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Mar 19 at 8:26pm
I guess we know it when we see it.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 10 Mar 19 at 8:34pm
Thanks Andymac. Yes, that’s it exactly. I don’t believe naval architects and scientists have a common definition and even if they did it wouldn’t be practical to use any such definition in the heat of a race. I don’t know if Rupert and I, say, would agree his Firefly is planing when is churning downwind at 9kts. So there must be some case law on it?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Mar 19 at 9:04pm
Would you say this Enterprise is planing ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FbWTFJ3kV0


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 10 Mar 19 at 9:20pm
I don’t know. I don’t think these 200s are, but others may disagree.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmHgCeAMec" rel="nofollow - 200s planing?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Mar 19 at 9:35pm
The 200's look like they are planing once the kites go up, but the appearance of planing could just be the kite lifting the bow, in both videos boats are going fast, I always assumed planing is when boat sits back and bow is lifted clear of water ?


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Mar 19 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Peaky

I don’t know. I don’t think these 200s are, but others may disagree.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmHgCeAMec" rel="nofollow - 200s planing?


They're not planing, planing as I understood it was less than half of the boat/board in contact with the water having overtaken the bow wave.

I don't think I've ever truly planed in the sense I know planing in a dinghy except once on a very very windy leg in an L3k with my crew flat wiring and a beam reach, it did occasionally come fully unstuck.

All that nonesense aboy Blazes 'planing' upwind for example just brings a smile.

Someone find me a picture or movie clip of a dinghy planing please.. even this little Farr, which is 3.7 long and quite light on the odd occasion i have fully wound it up, it doesn't come right unstuck.

It's one thing that great white elephant v2 did, on flat water it did shift rockers as it was supposed to and came unstuck.

The biggest problem as I see it for dinghies is the tremendous down force the rig applies to the nose, even if you do break free, the very next wave and the nose buries and off the plane you come. Even those over powered out of control cherubs you see tail walking, I wouldn't define that as planing in the true sense.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 10:44am
The Ent was clearly not displacement sailing, the 200 was in and out of displacement mode with the kite up. The only workable definition of 'planing' I can think of is when the boat breaks free of displacement mode. This will vary according to hull shape and rocker (and some boats never completely break free). We all know when we are 'planing' by the feel of the boat and the way the wake flattens out.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 11:58am
Or we could just use this, which is probably widest accepted version of 'planing' or to plane:




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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 4:19pm
Yup, that'd do it. So how do you know? When the boat lifts partially out of the water, like that Enterprise and the stern wave is clear of the transom?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 6:31pm
Definition of planing I heard when nobbut a nipper - aeons ago - was a boat overtaking it’s bow wave.

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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 1:21pm
That's basically it, and it does so when it exceeds displacement speed, modern low rocker designs transition from displacement to 'full' planing very quickly, old boats like the Ent spend a fair bit of time transitioning (and some would say, never really achieve 'full planing').

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 12:52pm
From the WS Rule 42 guidance to jurors and sailors for the Europe class:

DOWNWIND
1. Pumping
Pumping breaches are most likely to occur on reach and downwind legs. Both body pumping and sheet pumping are not permitted by 42.3(c)
Permitted actions:
• Trimming a sail in order to trim the boat in the prevailing conditions – PUMP 2
• Pumping a sail once per wave or gust of wind to initiate surfing or planing, but to qualify as surfing the boat must rapidly accelerate down the front of the wave – 42.3(c)
Prohibited actions:
• Repeatedly trimming a sail in order to fan it – PUMP 1
• Body pumping causing repeated flicks of the leach – PUMP 6
• Pumping a sail when already surfing or planing – PUMP 12
• A third consecutive unsuccessful attempt is prohibited – PUMP 8
Gathering evidence:
• Are there surfing or planing conditions?
• Does one pump per wave or gust of wind initiating surfing or planing?
• Is the boat pumping while already surfing or planing?
• Could the trim and release be a response to wind shifts, gusts or waves?
• Is the repeated trim and release fanning the sail?
• On a reach body pumping may best be seen from behind and to leeward of the Europe, in order to observe the athwartships body movement and the effect it has on the leach.
2. Rocking
After the start “S” sailing leads to the most critical breaches of the rule 42 in Europe Class in the run. Europe sailors sailing downwind change course continuously by luffing and bearing away using their bodies to facilitate steering the boat. This is allowed under rule 42.3(a) as long as there are waves and the boat changes course in phase with them. The amount of heeling must be consistent with the amount the boat turns. The best position for judges to observe both the effect of body movement on the boat and any steering by the sailor is from directly astern.
Permitted actions:
• Heeling the boat to leeward to facilitate heading up and heeling the boat to windward to facilitate bearing away, provided it is linked to wave patterns and the amount of boat’s heeling is consistent with the boat’s turn – ROCK 6
• Adopting static crew position when the boat’s stability is reduced – ROCK 4
Prohibited actions:
• Repeated rolling of the boat that is not linked to wave patterns – ROCK 7
• Repeated rolling of the boat in the absence of waves. - ROCK 7
• Repeated rolling of the boat in order to facilitate steering by making big body movements followed by the small change of course that in turn induces rocking – ROCK 6
• Standing up when making legal rolling and sitting down hard at the completion of the roll clearly propelling the boat – BASIC 4
• Single body movement followed by repeated rolling especially after inducing a roll to windward and before the roll is completed moving the body inward to counteract against it – ROCK 5
• In light air, inducing rolling by rhythmic repeated movements of the shoulder or head when sitting inside the boat on the traveller, with the centreboard out of the water and a loose leech
Gathering evidence:
• Is the competitor causing the boat to roll?
• Is the rolling helping the steering of the boat?
• Are there conditions for rolling the boat to facilitate steering?
• Is the amount of heeling consistent with the boat’s turn?
• Is it linked to the wave patterns?


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 7:41pm
So, 1. Pumping. The second bullet, clarifies surfing but not planing. The 5th bullet says you can’t pump if you are already planing (still no definition of what that is).
I get what pumping is. I think I know what planing is, but I don’t know what WS think it is. This seems strange as the RRS go to the trouble of defining “boat”, “mark” and “finish”, all of which seem much more obvious to me. To be liable to disqualification with redress when you may genuinely believe you are not already planing seems a wholly unsatisfactory situation.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 8:35pm
The situation is a long way from ideal, but not as unsatisfactory as having no rules at all. its clear enough when its definitely not planing conditions, and clear enough when it is, but I see no way that the grey area in between can be anything else. I've seen so many on line arguments as to what is or what isn't "real" planing that it seems to me sensible that the rules don't open that can of worms.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 9:05pm
I do understand that it’s difficult, but then why not remove the whole planing thing? I’m not suggesting open pumping, but why make the one pump conditional on planing? Why not just allow one pump per gust (ignoring that definition difficulty for now) regardless of surfing or planing? I don’t really see what value including the planing condition adds.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 10:46pm
Fact is one pump is never enough, it used to work when it was three pumps which was realistic.

So you get lots of 'one' pumps linked to become continuous, which imv is against the spirit of what is trying to be acheived.

Dinghys, well I've yet to experience one that does, on balance don't plane, they just displace a bit quicker on a wave, if you can get them over the hump. That takes more than just one sheet and it's time the whole thing got reviewed as to what realistically happens in real world condtions when there actually are waves. In other words black flag every inland event, sorry those ripple things you get, that chop, that aint enough to plane or displace a tad faster on.

When they are planing, pumping is the last thing you're worried about since it's pretty much survival windstrengths 25 kts plus.


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Mar 19 at 4:13am
Originally posted by Peaky

   Why not just allow one pump per gust (ignoring that definition difficulty for now) .

Because given the gust definition difficulty it would basically be allowing continual kinetics. Just consider the average light airs run...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Mar 19 at 12:59pm
Going back to the Enterprise, would it be better described as skimming?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Mar 19 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Going back to the Enterprise, would it be better described as skimming?

More likely pushing the level of the lake down.....


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Mar 19 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by 423zero

Going back to the Enterprise, would it be better described as skimming?

More likely pushing the level of the lake down.....


That's the Comet Trio, isn't it? You can plant spuds behind it in a blow. Feels fast, though!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Peaky

I don’t know. I don’t think these 200s are, but others may disagree.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmHgCeAMec" rel="nofollow - 200s planing?
Looks like he's just about to get planing at 1:26, if the crew would just move out... but generally no, not planing 

I'd say the Ent was.  

https://youtu.be/YWwuWK8ILIQ?t=32" rel="nofollow - Here at 0.33 you can see me not planing after a gybe, and then a big pump to initiate it... Plenty of 200 planing in that video (but it is 20 knots). 

Dan's calculation a few pages back is probably pretty accurate for the speeds required to achieve planing... but, my feeling is you drop off the plane at a speed below that which it takes to get over the bow wave (maybe Dan could comment if that is correct). And although 12 knots sounds a lot you can get instantaneous speeds easily over 12 knots in a 200 even in less than 15 knots of breeze, but lasting for less than a fraction of a second. 

When you shift your weight back violently and give the sail a pump it pushes the boat over it's bow wave. The boats average speed may be well less than 10 knots, but in that moment it's quite easy to get well above. Once out you can keep moving back and the boat will support itself planning on the wider flatter aft section at speed below hull speed. 

For example, assuming you get up on to the plane at 12 knots, but drop off it at 9. If you can ooch or pump to get over the bow wave by achieving 12 knots for a instant when otherwise you were doing 8 knots, you can then, with the same energy sustain steady planning at 10 knots due to less hull drag.

Generally I find a pump when you get hooked up on the back of wave really does help, but timing is crucial. It gives you an instantaneous boost which gets you over the lip. But, every action has an opposite reaction. Pumping is very energy inefficient, you might push the boat forward 2 foot in a pump, but then it slips back 20 inches when you ease the sail and restore your body wait to original trim. Slipping back 20 inches isn't an issue when the pump got you on to the plane at sustained 2 knots faster speed, or gets you on to wave which carries you 50 meters... but if you're not timing these pumps to take advantage of additional gains, then not having your sails or weight correctly trimmed during the pump can be more disruptive lose you those 4 inches which you invested a heap of energy in by pumping. 

In the very light winds, when you're hardly moving, then pumping, even if you're only clawing yourself forward a few inches at a time is a lot faster than sitting stationary, and you have very little true wind to worry about neglecting anyway... but few regatta's are raced in this, although I accept it makes up a lot of peoples club racing and is where, I think most of the concern with allowing free pumping is.

Above is really discussing 'macro' level pumping. With a large body movement and full arm length of sheet. It takes about 1- second for the pump and 5 seconds to slowly move back to the pre-pump position. You then get the fanning style of pumping you see on the 470s and windsurfs upwind which don't give a large instantaneous jump in speed, but input an extra boost of energy continually in to the sails. I think this is very hard to achieve in a dinghy though as you need a full persons body-weight in direct link to the rig... you don't see the finns doing it as most their body-weight is supported by a heavy hull. 

[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmfOaRXiMVc[/TUBE]




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RS800 1144


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

  you don't see the finns doing it as most their body-weight is supported by a heavy hull. 





The Finns are not allowed to pump upwind - written into class rules. 


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 1:22pm
Fair enough, bad example then! 

But still, i recon it would be hard to achieve what the 470s do in most hiking classes. And it's fairly obvious if someone does it at club level.... so much so I don't think it's much of a worry for club racing. 


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RS800 1144



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