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Time penalties

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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 9:14pm

Originally posted by English Dave

But neither can the RO always wait until everyone is ready. The regatta will have a published schedule in the NoR and the RC may also have a view to getting everyone back on the road in good time after the event has finished. It's a tough call - if the schedule calls for a start at a certain time and 80% of boats are there and the start is delayed for stragglers then it could be argued that they are getting colder and more tired than the latecomers who then might gain a small advantage.

 

Agreed.

 

IMO races should start on time unless there is a very good reason not to. 

Major pile up on the moterway; maybe.  Someone cannot get out of bed.  Nope.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by English Dave

But neither can the RO always wait until everyone is ready.


Indeed and the RO that doesn't start the practice race of a nationals on time is creating a rod for their own back - pathfinder not out yet, well switch to a line start and get it off at 3pm if that is the published time. By starting practice race on time you've set the tone for the week and it doesn't really matter if only 6 boats make it to the start line. If you wait til the fleet is out and start say 20 minutes late you'll never get the fleet started on time period....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 9:43pm

Let's suppose that the SIs say that the warning signal will not be before 11 am. If boats are in the start area and the AP is flying for a good reason (wind shift so reseting the course/ F8 squall) then OK. If the RO delays simply to wait for latecomers then that is a clear invitation for a claim for redress by those who are there on time. The "not before" give the RO some leeway but not a lot.

BTW not a big fan of time penalties (original thread). If you are OCS you go around. If you are black flagged then you should know better. If you don't want to ruin your weekend then behave yourself on the line. Very often a good start (as in too good to be true) will enable you to break clear from the pack. A standard time penanlty will not accommodate that.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by laser4000

If you wait til the fleet is out and start say 20 minutes late you'll never get the fleet started on time period....

If the fleet doesn't want to start on time isn't that down to them, not you?

One of the things I've noticed over the years is that AGMS everyone wants to do lots of back to back races, but on the day everyone takes the first opportunity to slip ahore for a drink and a comfort break, and are most aggrieved if the RO starts without them.

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 09 at 9:04am

I HATE it when starts are delayed for no reason other than the RO is disorganised, or they are waiting for boats to launch, even at club level. 

Quite aside from not being fair on those who are ready on time, if an 11am race doesn't start until 11.30, it delays lunch and eats in to the afternoon.  Many people can only commit to sailing either in the morning or afternoon, because boring non-sailing commitments get in the way.  I've had to retire from races that have started late, just so I can make it to work/home on time - very annoying!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 09 at 9:56am

Our starts lines at Hunts are rarely more then 2-3 minutes from the shore (small lake) yet we still get ROs who insist on waiting for eveyone to launch before they sound the warning!

I am a bit more harsh, the warning signal is just that, get yourself on the water NOW if you want to take part. Only had a few people whinge, they are generally the ones who get to the club early and then sit around chatting until 15 mins before the start.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 09 at 12:02pm
If we go back to the original point though, of a regatta fleet which I am assuming is made up of a mixture of classes, then we do seem to forget about flag 'Z'. In a mixed fleet race where everyone is racing against their handicap number rather than directly everyone else on the water, a time penalty is an easy way to avoid lots of re-starts, especially if you are in heavily tidal waters with limited sailing time. They offer a more friendly threat to the visiting competitors who at least get to spend time racing rather than sitting watching. At bigger events where its easy to get in more than two races per day I think the RO needs to be a bit stronger and either control individual recalls, generall recalls or resort to black flag.

As for the RO waiting for lazy competitors, it shouldnt happen but having been on the other side of this several times, thanks to leaving work later than planned or being on the water with a good competitor struggling to get rigged in time, it is nice to have enough flexibility to allow good racing. Although on Tuesday night I wasnt too bothered when I left the slipway with only 50seconds to go until my start. Got to the start line 10seconds late. My fault for being undecided as to whether to bother going out or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 09 at 1:04pm

With respect to disqualification, there is definitely a difference between a club race and an open. In a club race it's people you socialise with who you would be penalising and depending on your character you may not want to do it.

I set a course a few weeks back that meant a spinnaker reach parallel to the dam wall and one sailor took exception to this as he considered it dangerous. He all but demanded I changed the course and I'm sure a less stubborn RO would have folded and changed the course.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 09 at 1:19pm

Does being penalised under the Z flag exonerate you from being OCS?

I would have thought it's a penalty for being in the triangle in the final minute, and not an invitiation to start a minute early in exchange for a place 20% down the fleet?

So I would think you still have to go back and start as per definition?

I've never seen Z used, except as a class flag, can someone clarify?

The Round the Island Race uses a 10min penalty, but there was discussion that this should not be allowed as it changes the def'n of 'start'.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 09 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Does being penalised under the Z flag exonerate you from being OCS?

I would have thought it's a penalty for being in the triangle in the final minute, and not an invitiation to start a minute early in exchange for a place 20% down the fleet?

So I would think you still have to go back and start as per definition?

I've never seen Z used, except as a class flag, can someone clarify?

The Round the Island Race uses a 10min penalty, but there was discussion that this should not be allowed as it changes the def'n of 'start'.

No, the Z flag does not exonerate you from OCS. As you rightly state, you still have to 'start' correctly, and only then is 20% penalty added to your finish position. You could of course pick the penalty up at any point in the final minute, yet be behind the line (and start correctly) at the gun.

I have only experienced its use once at Oxford in a Laser masters event, however nobody received a penalty...perhaps proof that it works as a deterrent!

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