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Time penalties

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djdhi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote djdhi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Time penalties
    Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 2:06pm

Hi, I have  read on YandY and elsewhere and also witnessed General recalls where the fleet or most of it have sailed blithely on thus presenting the RO with a dilemma at the finish with mass disqualifications. Also in a Regatta with a crowded startline and time pressure there is the problem with the delayed restart.

So why not have time penalties as big yachts do? Wouldn't a standard 2 min penalty in one hour be enough to deter early starters and also contribute to smoother running of an event ?

djdhi

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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 2:25pm
The ability to do this already exists, I think its the 'Z' flag which when raised at the 1 minutes signal indicates that any boats over the line will received a 10% penalty.

I am 75% confident that this is correct but perhaps someone more aufais with the rules, such as Gordon could confirm.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 2:31pm
You'd need to time the boats, which in a single-fleet race is an unwelcome addition.  Also, how far over would you allow - can a boat start by the windward mark and just claim a 2 minute penalty?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 2:31pm
The Z flag by default is a 20% place penalty, but SIs can change this.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by djdhi

Hi, I have  read on YandY and elsewhere and also witnessed General recalls where the fleet or most of it have sailed blithely on thus presenting the RO with a dilemma at the finish with mass disqualifications. Also in a Regatta with a crowded startline and time pressure there is the problem with the delayed restart.

So why not have time penalties as big yachts do? Wouldn't a standard 2 min penalty in one hour be enough to deter early starters and also contribute to smoother running of an event ?

djdhi



Because you don't need it - any RO with his stuff together will have a RIB equipped with a general recall flag - when the general recall is signalled then send the RIB across the fleet and you'll soon send people back. If starting multi-fleets then just send the offending fleet to the rear of the sequence.

Originally posted by djdhi

most of it have sailed blithely on thus presenting the RO with a dilemma at the finish with mass disqualifications


Don't see what the dilemma is here myself - just DSQ them for failing to start/finish correctly as the RO is permitted to under the rules.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 3:56pm

Agree with Laser4000; PRO has to get tough with the fleet to start with.  DSQ those that are over.  If most are over, then just record those that are the RIGHT side of the line (as long as you can get them ALL) and then DSQ the rest.

I hear people saying that a General will be called if loads of boats are over.  NOPE; the general will be sounded if the RO cannot identify the boats that have started correctly.

Black flag is another good tool.  Repeat starts until you get enough that can start early.

Also good for the PRO to state he will be tough on the line for a big fleet. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

If most are over, then just record those that are the RIGHT side of the line (as long as you can get them ALL) and then DSQ the rest.


That's all very well, and for professional and Olympic level events I probably agree, but its also the job of the RC and the hosting club to do their best to provide a fun event for the competitors.

I well remember an event where the RC hoisted a black flag for the first start. The windward mark was up near the launching area, and he DSQ'd a significant number of later arrivals who happened to get into the starting line/windward mark triangle as they headed down to the start. That stuffed the event and spolied the event for a whole bunch of sailors, and IMHO was a very poor decision...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 4:47pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

If most are over, then just record those that are the RIGHT side of the line (as long as you can get them ALL) and then DSQ the rest.


That's all very well, and for professional and Olympic level events I probably agree, but its also the job of the RC and the hosting club to do their best to provide a fun event for the competitors.

I well remember an event where the RC hoisted a black flag for the first start. The windward mark was up near the launching area, and he DSQ'd a significant number of later arrivals who happened to get into the starting line/windward mark triangle as they headed down to the start. That stuffed the event and spolied the event for a whole bunch of sailors, and IMHO was a very poor decision...

I would agree that doing that was a poor decision; but if he's running the black flag, he needs to.  Maybe they should have got on the water earlier.......

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Maybe they should have got on the water earlier

I imagine that would have been the Race Officers attitude too. Personally I am not convinced that getting caught in traffic on the motorway should be grounds for disqualification and having the event you have put a lot of effort into attnding spoiled.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 09 at 7:51pm
But neither can the RO always wait until everyone is ready. The regatta will have a published schedule in the NoR and the RC may also have a view to getting everyone back on the road in good time after the event has finished. It's a tough call - if the schedule calls for a start at a certain time and 80% of boats are there and the start is delayed for stragglers then it could be argued that they are getting colder and more tired than the latecomers who then might gain a small advantage.
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