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    Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 11:49am

Topper Worlds sound like a nightmare...

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=147719

 

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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 12:06pm
Is this not the same club that held the A class worlds?...I say this as similar interesting starts where held then
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 12:58pm
I'm not condoning the race management at the topper worlds, but sometimes competitors need to exercise a bit of intelligence rather than just adhering rigidly to their habits and rules. If its becoming apparent that the races are being binned due to poor start management, then the sailors need to come to a gentlemans agreement (which is probably difficult given the average age of the fleet is 14-15) and ensure that they can get in some races. If I was taking part and one or two idiots insisted on protesting the race committee to the point where the event was in serious risk of being scrapped, I'd go and have a chat and get them to chill out. The sailing club will undoubtadly be doing their best albeit not in line with our sailors expectations and some times you have to make the best of a bad situation, thats life I'm afraid!



Edited by craiggo
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 1:45pm

Can you use video evidence from a support boat at a protest hearing.  Is that not outside assistance?

Can't blame the kids for pushing the rules.  Once the precedent is set, everyone's going to push the line as much as possible if they can get away with it.  The best sailors are probably still winning though...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 6:54pm
"If I was taking part and one or two idiots insisted on protesting the race committee to the point where the event was in serious risk of being scrapped, I'd go and have a chat and get them to chill out."

1. Nobody can protest the race committee  they can only request redress...

2. I would be careful about intervening as you propose. This could easily end up as a rule 69 hearing!

Video evidence is perfectly acceptable (but is rarely all that conclusive). anybody can be a witness, including a coach. The Protest Committee will evaluate the weight they should accord to such evidence. However, in a case involving disputed OCS video evidence may well be the only reliable evidence available. I beleive that there was a case at the Finn Gold Cup reently were the Jury had to make a trip to the local Chinese restaurant to find an interpreter to question the Chinese coach who had conclusive video evidence that a boat (British) was not OCS.

Final comment - there seems to be a growing attitude among some ROs that a fleet in which a large number of boats are OCS can be left to race if the start is in some (questionable) way "fair". Hopefully events at the Topper Worlds will nip this unfortunate trend in the bud. I would suggest that the way to deal with a fleet that cannot start properly (assuming lines are properly laid, Z and black flags used etc) would be for the RO to issue an ammendment and threaten to use a gate start.

Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by craiggo

I'm not condoning the race management at the topper worlds, but sometimes competitors need to exercise a bit of intelligence rather than just adhering rigidly to their habits and rules.



But if you read the ITCA website report and believe it to be a fair reflection of events then the PRO has ballsed it big time. No invididual recalls, generals of black flags on day 1.
 
Error!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 10:48pm
I understand both the arguments from Gordon and laser4000 but if you are rapidly entering a situation where a non-professional event is on the verge of being canned then surely salvaging some form of race is better than having spent 100s on a trip to Austria to take part in a nothing event?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 11:01pm

Why is the RO simply not black flagging it, an d then running starts and binning people until the fleet can behave.  I've done may starts in such fleets waiting for people to behave.

 

After every start, you sail round the CTB to see if your number is on the blackboard, if it is.  GO home.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote boomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 11:26pm

This is probably the problem at the Topper Worlds - the PRO may not be aware of of or have experience of:

A - the frankly, highly competitive nature of the fleet

b - the level of skill that has been drummed into the kids through the fantastic coaching that is offered by the RYA & ITCA GBR Squads to hundreds of kids each year

C - the self imposed pressure that is evident when these kids get to big events - yes, they are going to push the line as far as the PRO will allow - he has to grab control if it is to succeed

D - there are plenty of Parents who are onshore, they have invested ,000's in the trip & the build up - yes, they are going to be anxious that fair play is seen to be applied - my experience is that the majority are happy to let the sailors impose their own pressure rather than be "pushy" parents

I have experience of the Topper fleet at big events in the UK over the past 2/3 years & the racing is extremely competitive yet well behaved at all levels - the fleet is generally praised by all the clubs that are lucky enough to host an event - read the reviews on Y&Y - great fun is had by all!!

 

There may be trouble ahead!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 09 at 6:28am

Originally posted by gordonFinal comment - there seems to be a growing attitude among some ROs that a fleet in which a large number of boats are OCS can be left to race if the start is in some (questionable) way fair. Hopefully events at the Topper Worlds will nip this unfortunate trend in the bud. I would suggest that the way to deal with a fleet that cannot start properly (assuming lines are properly laid, Z and black flags used etc) would be for the RO to issue an ammendment and threaten to use a gate start.

Gordon
[/QUOTE


I had never heard of this until a comment by a youngster recently, when the 4 Europes in club handicap site forced a general recall.  'Why didn't he let us go, we were all level'  actually the other 3 were level 1 1/2 boat lengths over, I was reaching down the line trying to stay behind it!  I didn't quite NB it at the time.

ps.  Not sure whats going on with the formatting.

I had never heard of this until a comment by a youngster recently, when the 4 Europes in club handicap site forced a general recall.  'Why didn't he let us go, we were all level'  actually the other 3 were level 1 1/2 boat lengths over, I was reaching down the line trying to stay behind it!  I didn't quite NB it at the time.

ps.  Not sure whats going on with the formatting.



Edited by tack'ho
I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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