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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How Not To Do It?
    Posted: 23 Jul 09 at 11:08pm
I had a look at the SIs, only appendix P was mentioned. It just disturbs me that people feel that it's the Jury boats job to sort everything out when the onus is on the sailors for their conduct and rules observance.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 09 at 5:49pm
The role of on the water Jurys is often a matter for discussion between the judges and the organising authority. Judges are neither umpires nor referees. They only intervene when requested to do so.

If the Jury has been requested (and the SIs are written accordingly) to apply Appendix P (rule 42 on the water) then they will do so. However, each Jury will then decide on a policy for Jury protests. Very often the decision is taken not to intervene, or any protest would be limited to rule 2 infringements, not sailing the course in the absence of other boats, or hitting the mark and not taking a penalty.

So if a prt tack boat infringes the Jury boat may well follow policy and leave it to the competitors to protest. Apparently, in this case no competitor felt sufficient ly aggreived to protest.

Gordon


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 09 at 11:51am
1. No General recall in first start. This learns them that if they push the line on the principle that if they are over all of their rivals will be over and they'll get another shot isn't going to fly

2. Then unleash the black flag for the second start Once more, no general recalls.

3. They should have got the message by now...

I'm slightly disturbed that the report for one of the races suggests the Jury Boat should have done something about a port tack barger at the windward mark, although the report appears to have been edited now...

 'About a third of the fleet are on the foredeck paddling to the line at 30 seconds to go and the start is postponed' - Hmmm... I don't know where to start with that one...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 09 at 10:11am
I believe rule 69 was mentioned in the context of competitors trying to "persuade" others to withdraw requests for redress. It would be the competitor who is trying to put pressure on the requestor not to go through with the request who may face the wrath of the Jury. It would depend on the degree of persuasion being applied!

In the case of a Worlds - do we really want the Championship to be won by someone who was repeatedly OCS but not penalised. In many ways it would have been better for the RO to request redress, or take it upon himself to abandon the other questionable races.

Certainly, if a protest committee finds that a boat is clearly over the line (clearly meaning that even the competitors on board could not ignore the fact) and continues to race, even without a black flag, then there is a distinct possibility that this will be found to be a deliberate breach of a rule, which is a rule 2 infringement.

Personally I believe that the attitude that lets a fleet sail on even if many boats were OCS is not one to be encouraged. There are remedies - I understand that the RO at the recent Squib Nationals blackflagged 25% of the fleet in one race (108 boats competing). Sending a Jury boat down the line a minute before the start can work. I have seen one RO take the radical step of setting a line with ahuge committee boat bias and blackflagging a large number of boats (not exactly fair, but it certainly calmed the fleet down). In some cases making the line longer is effective.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 09 at 9:39am

Welll what a difference a flag makes?

1 day later and a black flag flying and the PRO has control....but why didnt he use this earlier? My information is that it is an experienced PRO running the event.

How can a start with so many boats over ever be fair? and to be honest I would seek redress if as stated so many boats were over the line and a RO hadnt recalled. I do not see that a Rule 69 can even be mentioned in this case, and to even threaten such to a competitor would actually be bullying and thus a breach of Rule 69 in itself. What I think we miss, and IMHO is the important fact, is that Race 3 was canned in the protest room and it wasnt the worst of the starts. So all competitors should be annouyed if the others weren't canned either.

It strikes me that this is a case that the RC got it wrong and should amend, but also look at the SIs maybe with 1 day canned it should be poss to qualify on the 2nd....what would have happened if it had been blowing 40 knots on the 1st day and all racing had been canned?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 09 at 6:28am

Originally posted by gordonFinal comment - there seems to be a growing attitude among some ROs that a fleet in which a large number of boats are OCS can be left to race if the start is in some (questionable) way fair. Hopefully events at the Topper Worlds will nip this unfortunate trend in the bud. I would suggest that the way to deal with a fleet that cannot start properly (assuming lines are properly laid, Z and black flags used etc) would be for the RO to issue an ammendment and threaten to use a gate start.

Gordon
[/QUOTE


I had never heard of this until a comment by a youngster recently, when the 4 Europes in club handicap site forced a general recall.  'Why didn't he let us go, we were all level'  actually the other 3 were level 1 1/2 boat lengths over, I was reaching down the line trying to stay behind it!  I didn't quite NB it at the time.

ps.  Not sure whats going on with the formatting.

I had never heard of this until a comment by a youngster recently, when the 4 Europes in club handicap site forced a general recall.  'Why didn't he let us go, we were all level'  actually the other 3 were level 1 1/2 boat lengths over, I was reaching down the line trying to stay behind it!  I didn't quite NB it at the time.

ps.  Not sure whats going on with the formatting.



Edited by tack'ho
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Post Options Post Options   Quote boomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 11:26pm

This is probably the problem at the Topper Worlds - the PRO may not be aware of of or have experience of:

A - the frankly, highly competitive nature of the fleet

b - the level of skill that has been drummed into the kids through the fantastic coaching that is offered by the RYA & ITCA GBR Squads to hundreds of kids each year

C - the self imposed pressure that is evident when these kids get to big events - yes, they are going to push the line as far as the PRO will allow - he has to grab control if it is to succeed

D - there are plenty of Parents who are onshore, they have invested ,000's in the trip & the build up - yes, they are going to be anxious that fair play is seen to be applied - my experience is that the majority are happy to let the sailors impose their own pressure rather than be "pushy" parents

I have experience of the Topper fleet at big events in the UK over the past 2/3 years & the racing is extremely competitive yet well behaved at all levels - the fleet is generally praised by all the clubs that are lucky enough to host an event - read the reviews on Y&Y - great fun is had by all!!

 

There may be trouble ahead!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 11:01pm

Why is the RO simply not black flagging it, an d then running starts and binning people until the fleet can behave.  I've done may starts in such fleets waiting for people to behave.

 

After every start, you sail round the CTB to see if your number is on the blackboard, if it is.  GO home.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 10:48pm
I understand both the arguments from Gordon and laser4000 but if you are rapidly entering a situation where a non-professional event is on the verge of being canned then surely salvaging some form of race is better than having spent 100s on a trip to Austria to take part in a nothing event?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 09 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by craiggo

I'm not condoning the race management at the topper worlds, but sometimes competitors need to exercise a bit of intelligence rather than just adhering rigidly to their habits and rules.



But if you read the ITCA website report and believe it to be a fair reflection of events then the PRO has ballsed it big time. No invididual recalls, generals of black flags on day 1.
 
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