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Misconduct/RRS 69 Guidance

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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 8:19am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by 423zero

I like the 'Language that would make an official FEEL they were incompetent or make others think the official was incompetent'.

That's a really tough one as at nearly every event this year I've attended someone has made a complaint about a race management issue. Where does the line get drawn? 

I used the words Ridiculous to an RO this year in regards to starting a race with half the fleet not even at the course yet because launching facilities were to slow to get everyone off the shore in time. Do we just put up with that kind of nonsense because we can't be vocal about it or risk face getting protested under R69?


As paying "customers" are we not allowed to hold them to a decent standard?

I’ll bite on this.  IMHO if you said the RO’s actions were ridiculous (definition: worthy of contempt or derision) rather than the situation (e.g. “your decision to start that race was ridiculous” vs “that race was ridiculous because the wind was unbelievably shifty”) you have breached 57.1.1[language that might convey incompetence of race official].

Also see section 9, the bar is not gross misconduct, and calling an RO’s actions or decisions is a breach of good manners.

What is Misconduct?
9.1 Misconduct is defined by rule 69.1(a) as being conduct which:
9.1.1 is a breach of good manners, sportsmanship or unethical behaviour; or
9.1.2 conduct that may bring, or has brought, the sport into disrepute.
9.2 There is no requirement for misconduct to be ‘gross misconduct’. This means the level at which conduct becomes misconduct is lower than it was under the rules until 2017,
9.3 This was a deliberate policy decision of World Sailing and intended to ensure a greater range of bad behaviour is addressed by protest committees. In order to ensure that competitors are still treated appropriately and proportionately, greater flexibility has been given to protest committees and other disciplinary bodies.

I have known club members quit the club (and the sport) on the back of rude complaints about their RO efforts.  In a volunteer sport this is clearly absurd.  Even if paid, it is common courtesy to thank officials and provide feedback in a constructive, polite manner.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 9:21am
OK, so the guidance doesn't create on offence based on the subjective feelings of a race official. The tests remain objective.

I was brought up that the only things I, as a competitor said to a race officer were "Good Morning", "Thank for a nice day on the water", and "Can I buy you a drink?", to which he was duty bound to reply, "No thank, I've got one coming."

As a sensitive new age race officer, I now seek and welcome feedback from competitors.

What i don't welcome is an earful of abuse.   I think "ridiculous" is just over the line. Whether it would bother me would depend on what else was said.

Generally, if anyone has a "complaint" about race management they should either request redress or write a letter to the sailing committee.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 10:15am
57 respect for officials was main section I based my opinion on, also similar references in other sections.
57.1.1 Use of language that might convey incompetence or prejudice of race officials


Edited by 423zero - 11 Nov 21 at 7:21pm
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 12:55pm
I think one has to be very careful of what one could call the "send three and fourpence" effect. Some of the "variations" in rules one hears quoted in low profile club racing must surely be the result of Fred instructing Bill over the generations, resulting in a misinterpreted version of what was in the rules 100 years ago!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 1:23pm
The opinion I expressed was purely my own and developed yesterday after reading the Articles, which I still stand by.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Brass

OK, so the guidance doesn't create on offence based on the subjective feelings of a race official. The tests remain objective.

I was brought up that the only things I, as a competitor said to a race officer were "Good Morning", "Thank for a nice day on the water", and "Can I buy you a drink?", to which he was duty bound to reply, "No thank, I've got one coming."

As a sensitive new age race officer, I now seek and welcome feedback from competitors.

What i don't welcome is an earful of abuse.   I think "ridiculous" is just over the line. Whether it would bother me would depend on what else was said.

Generally, if anyone has a "complaint" about race management they should either request redress or write a letter to the sailing committee.



Much might depend on how the RO decides to hear and understand ‘ridiculous’.

In the first half of the definition ‘deserving or inviting derision or mockery’….probably over the line.

If the second half ‘absurd’….maybe not. I would say that in the circumstances described by the OP (if launch start was controlled by the RC and lateness was not the fault of competitors) then not postponing is ‘adsurd’ - ‘wildly unreasonable, illogical or appropriate.’

The problem may be with the ability of the competitor to express themself….certainly it would be harsh for a competitor able to take advantage of the non-arrival of his rivals to be penalised for using language like ‘ridiculous’ on their behalf!

I was very struck by the guidance for jurors and umpires and its suggestion that sometimes they should turn the deaf ear….

I recently received a warning from an umpire where it was the volume I was making my point at (in the conversation that the guidance says should take place!) not for the manner of it…..why was my volume high? Because the umpires positioning of their RIB was rubbish!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by sargesail

.why was my volume high?


You? High volume? I would never have guessed.

Mate of Maxibuddah by any chance?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 9:10pm
Sarge,

First the guidelines don't expressly provide for justification or the defence of truth, but, of course these could be taken into account.

Second "ridiculous" is insulting on any definition.

Third, in reaching conclusions about ridiculous or not, you'd need to know all the circumstances. Maybe th RO had direction from the OA to start on time, maybe competitors were trying to manipulate the start time, maybe th RO got dud all clear from the beachmaster.

I think its pretty simple: don't backchat or be rude to race officials.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Brass

Sarge,


Second "ridiculous" is insulting on any definition.



What, like describing the contents of your last post? FFS get some help.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 10:18pm
Grf it seems you don’t have much experience of protests, which is a very big surprise considering what I’ve seen of your sailing in videos  LOL
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