New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
NickM99 View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 145 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules
    Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 9:54am
I assume that many clubs have SIs for club racing that says something like "All races will be governed by the rules as defined in The ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2017-20(RRS)" and then turn a blind eye to Rule 78, particularly with regard e.g. to Laser equipment.  

Have any clubs inserted in SIs a change to Rule 78 with a paragraph along the lines of "The Sailing Committee may at its discretion permit boats that do not comply with class rules or have a valid certificate to race but may apply a separate handicap and/or exclude a boat from participating in single class races." ?
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:27am
You are not allowed to do that. What most clubs do to get around it is create a club class that specifies what is and is not permitted.

For example you could create an SCLaser class which has the same rules as the ILCA dinghy with the exception that non-compliant sails may be used at the discretion of the ILCA fleet captain/club/sailing committee. All sails must be a direct replacement for the Class Compliant sail.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:38am
The other way is to say that measurement protests are not permitted (not sure if you can still do that). 

That does raise other concerns though as you cant stop a boat that has clearly been modified to increase performance unless you go down the rule 2 or rule 69 route or impose a PY penalty.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3395 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:53am
An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...

You mean Laser Performance sell training and 'compliant but no royalty button' sails.

Not sure what Ovington and the other new builders will be doing.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3395 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 11:26am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...

You mean Laser Performance sell training and 'compliant but no royalty button' sails.

Not sure what Ovington and the other new builders will be doing.

Sailboats and other retailers are selling them so I assume that is with the blessing of the ILCA. LPE can't sell ILCA 'compliant' sails (compliant = "used to describe something that obeys a particular rule or law").
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1144 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by NickM99

I assume that many clubs have SIs for club racing that says something like "All races will be governed by the rules as defined in The ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2017-20(RRS)" and then turn a blind eye to Rule 78, particularly with regard e.g. to Laser equipment.


What do you mean 'turn a blind eye'?

Case 39
Sportsmanship and the Rules
Rule 60.2(a), Right to Protest; Right to Request Redress or Rule 69 Action
A race committee is not required to protest a boat. The primary responsibility for enforcing the rules lies with the competitors.

Originally posted by jeffers

You are not allowed to do that.


Why?

It looks quite neat to me, but you have to be careful with your SI, because PY relies fundamentally on a List of Class Handicaps.

Edited by Brass - 07 Oct 20 at 1:18pm
Back to Top
NickM99 View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 145 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 1:19pm
Jeffers, why do you say you cannot change Rule 78?  I frequently see in SIs "The following Rules will be subject to change..." and then elsewhere in the SIs it specifies what the local amendment is.  Whether it is a good idea to do this with Rule 78 is another matter.
Back to Top
NickM99 View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 145 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 1:27pm
Brass, sorry, loose drafting on my part.  I was thinking of pre-empting the situation which as others has said is unlikely in club racing, where a competitor protests another boat for being out of class.  

Incidentally, even at national level there can be a lot of tolerance.  For example I believe the Mirror Association tolerates unmeasured boats competing in the Nationals in the Bronze Fleet,  but they are excluded from qualifying for fleet prizes. (Not sure if that is covered in the SIs or not.)
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 2:09pm
Loose drafting from me too, my second post says about not allowing measurement protests which is effectively that same thing but opens a huge can of worms.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy