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johnbrooker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnbrooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 1:57pm
I think I can word it without using the word overtaking so I'll change that part.

However, I later use it in the following context which I would argue makes sense: "established by the leeward boat overtaking from clear astern". 

It seems acceptable to use the word 'overtaking' here as it's talking about how the overlap 'was' established in the first instance. If someone can reword this so it still sounds simple let me know. This is the published post: https://dinghyracingtips.com/blog/luffing-rights-proper-course-rule-17-of-the-racing-rules-of-sailing/
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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnbrooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 2:04pm
I've re-worded the following sentence but I feel it's lost some clarity as a result. It's now harder for a beginner to visualise the situation. So if you have any ideas on how to reword it without using the word 'overtaking' let me know. "Rule 17 addresses what happens if the overlap is created by the leeward boat overtaking. But what if it’s the windward boat that creates the overlap by overtaking?" 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 5:12pm
What's wrong with the words in the rule "becomes overlapped to leeward"?

I'm not sure you should use "time and opportunity". That's old language that isn't in the current rule set, and was removed for good reason.

I'm also not at all sure about the phrase "luffing rights". Again that's very old language.

Surely its much simpler to go back to the fundamental - that the right of way boat may sail where she pleases and the give way boat must keep clear, but there are some exceptions which limit what the ROW boat can do.

Another thing that I'm not sure about is that you haven't highlighted what to me is the key point. When clear astern soon-to-be-leeward is the give way boat, and clear ahead the right of way boat. As soon as the overlap is created, though, this swaps round, and leeward is ROW. Its this transition from keep clear to ROW that is key to this rule and a number of others. By contrast in the other situation, where the boat clear astern overlaps to windward then she continues to be keep clear boat and nothing changes.

[Later] Thinking about it this highlights the fundamental difference between RRS and Col Regs. Under RRS a ROW boat can normally sail where she wants, even if it impedes another boat, and give way must adapt to whatever she does. By contrast in Col Regs the stand on boat is required to hold course and speed. Col Regs don't even include the phrase Right of Way.



Edited by JimC - 30 Jun 20 at 7:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 5:36pm
I think a FAQ for rule 17 should include a definition of proper course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnbrooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 9:12pm

Cheers Jim. There’s nothing wrong with ‘becomes overlapped to leeward’.

However, I’m struggling to reword the sentence using just those terms. Here’s the sentence again: “Rule 17 addresses what happens if the overlap is created by the leeward boat overtaking. But what if it’s the windward boat that creates the overlap by overtaking?"

 

You’re right on the "time and opportunity" matter. I will change that. Out of interest, when was that changed as I remember talking to Chris Watts in 2015 when he used the term.

 

With the term ‘luffing rights’, how else could you phrase it? And is there anything wrong with the term. I don’t see any ambiguity there.

 

Regarding, going back to the fundamental – that’s what the article is trying to do and is structured in exactly that fashion. The FAQ is tagged onto the end of the article to explain the exceptions which limit the ROW boat.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 9:14pm
I'd have said the phrase "coming from astern" is accurate and does not sound as much like like 'legalese' as much of the RRS, necessarily, does.

I've read the page though and, as you are quoting the rule then explaining it in plain language I think you have overcome the need to 'dumb it down' to the extent of using imprecise wording. To me what is there in the link is good.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnbrooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 9:14pm
ACZ  It does. However, I didn't attach my full article here as I didn't want my post to be too long. The full article is here: https://dinghyracingtips.com/blog/luffing-rights-proper-course-rule-17-of-the-racing-rules-of-sailing/

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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnbrooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 9:20pm
Thanks Sam, yup and my use of the word overtaking is in a question format voiced by an imaginary sailor. It's worded how they may describe the situation. My answer doesn't include incorrect terminology.  
However, I see it could be worded your way. Something like: "Rule 17 addresses what happens where a boat comes from astern to become leeward boat. But what if a boat comes from astern to become windward boat?"

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 20 at 3:33am
The trouble with talking about luffing rights, I think, is that there's really no such thing any more. It was all keyed in with mast abeam and all the complex special situation stuff that got ditched in the big rewrite back when half the current sailing population weren't even born. There is no specific right to luff. The right of way boat has the right to sail where she likes, even if it impedes another boat, subject to some specific restrictions.

So rule 17 deals with the special case where the ROW changes when an overlap is created and the boats are close. In the astern/windward situation ROW doesn't change when the overlap occurs, and the boats continue to have the same rights and responsibilities. Similarly if an overlap was created when the craft were more than two boat lengths apart although ROW changes, there's no need for a special case (and practically it may well be impossible to know which boat was astern of which when the overlap started).

I suppose my criticism would be that you are treating the overlap creation as too much of a standalone situation, and not enough about it as a part of the general rules. I struggle with suggestions a bit because the way you are approaching this is so very different from the way I would.

Maybe something like.
Rule 17 addresses the special case where an overlap starts when the boats are close together and the ROW boat changes. If the boats are far apart then there is no need for a special case, and if ROW doesn't change when the overlap is created then the relative rights and responsibilities continue as they were before the overlap.

When it comes to mark rounding this business of ROW changing and limits on the ROW boat becomes even more important. But that's another tale!



Edited by JimC - 01 Jul 20 at 3:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 20 at 6:06am
Simplest thing have no overlap at all, boats can only go round Marks in line astern, if you haven't got past before 3 boat lengths, bad luck, this would get rid of a load of protests and rules.
Robert
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