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How can this be fair race management?

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How can this be fair race management?
    Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:23am
Look at the Halo and Phantom in 5th and 6th position.

Why are they that way round?

What cock a maimie rule set up delivers that sort of decision and why has it come about?

With less overall points and a lower discard surely it should be the other way round and what are all these half points?

Anybody?

What's going on was it some sort of pursuit calculation?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:33am
Take the time to read the RSS and the appendix on scoring.

When you compare the two sets of scores, of the countable scores, the Halo has the lowest score of 3.5 compared with the Phantom's 4.

The discards are exactly what they say they are ie discards which do not count for scoring purposes.

A fairly basic situation which will occur several times at an Open meeting.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:37am
But the Halo had the lowest single race score after discards - 3.5. (No idea where the 0.5 came from - a tie with the D0 probably?)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:46am
To clarify this further, iGRF needs to read RRS Appendix 1, section 8 as below:
SERIES TIES A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.
NB before you ask excluded scores mean discards.

The half a point is easily explained as the Halo tied with another boat in that race - again covered in RRS section 8.

I sincerely hope someone else does the race scoring down in deepest Kent!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:46am
So if that is the case, how do you explain the tie break of the Merlln and the Scorpion further down? at 13/14

That Halo/Phantom result is unfair whichever way you call it, they tied, but the Phantom had lower points and a lower discard, had in fact beaten the Halo more than he'd beaten him, makes the whole point of racing any more than the last race irrelevant.

Stupid is as stupid does.

f**ked up is what it is how do you score a third and a half against the other guys four ffs?

Edited by iGRF - 06 Jan 15 at 10:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:53am
Originally posted by iGRF



Stupid is as stupid does.

f**ked up is what it is.

it's just a change in scoring procedure to make sure a discard is a full discard.  I can see your POV though, secondly from a 3 race series is their any need for a discard anyway?

edit: when did a DNF begin scoring the same as a DNS?  Surely getting around just one lap should put me a point above those who stayed in bed?  


Edited by turnturtle - 06 Jan 15 at 10:55am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:00am
Time was if only three races were sailed they all counted and discards were recognised as the next call on a tie break, this system smacks of more of that Olympics double points on the last race scoring bullsh*t.

Don't you lot ever protest at this sort of crap?

Edited by iGRF - 06 Jan 15 at 11:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:17am
pussification... the discard allows for Olympic level gear failure, thus not rewarding the boy scout who can keep a boat on the water by his or herself for an entire regatta and has the stones to sail every race- where maybe, just maybe, the discard might actually count for something in the event of a tie break.

Of course, being conservative types, I'm sure ISAF wouldn't have changed it without reason.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:19am
It has been this way for a couple of decades at least - I'm sure a rules expert can ut a date on it.

13/14 is done in exactly the same way - 10 beats 11.

Whether a discard is allowed is a different thing to how the scoring is done once it is. Pesonally, I have been both winner and loser in the system. What it does is reward the best result of an open, rather than punish the worst, which is what you get if you count the discard in a tie break. So long as everyone (apart from a few poeple who can't be arsed to read the SIs) knows the system, I can't see that it matters, so long as it is consistant.

In terms of discards, there can be many reasons for having them. In the Minisails, I've been counting 2 from 4 races in a series, but bunging the better discard in as a tie break where neccessary. This has allowed 1 boat to be sailed by 2 different people and have them both qualify! Unique circumstances that more established classes don't really need, but made for a more fun day of sailing.

In the Lightnings there is a discard, but all the races individually go forwards for the Traveller Series results, meaning it is still worthwhile for the boat who has, say, won the first 2 races to try hard in the 3rd, despite winning the event already.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:22am
Can't get excited about it. All scoring systems are fair, all scoring systems are unfair. They all have pros and cons. Its ironic that computer based systems encourage uniformity because its easier to use the official default rather than set it up for a club's own preference.
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